Why I didn’t buy a hybrid car

Toyota Echo Hatchback ReviewUPDATE: I’ve writen a more complete and up-to-date review of the Toyota Echo Hatchback after having owned it for seven months. Read the full review: silverorange stuff review of the 2004 Toyota Echo Hatchback

Echo HatchbackI’m as much a conspiracy theorist as the next guy. However, I tend to think the slow adoption of electric vehicles has more to do with consumers (like myself) being cheap/lazy/stupid/greedy than it does with an evil oil oligarchy propping up the traditional auto industry.

That said, let’s take a look at hybrid cars. I consider myself a lazy/opportunistic environmentalist. That is, I’ll make the better environmental choice if it is easy and obvious. I’ll even spend a bit of extra cash, but it doesn’t go much further than that.

I had looked at the latest round of hybrid gas/electric cars and was generally disappointed. First of all, they are mostly absurdly designed (they look stupid, with the Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius roughly equal in their ugliness). This is improving. The next model of the Prius (2004) is much better looking (though still odd), and Honda made the seemingly obvious, but oddly unique, move of making their Civic Hybrid look exactly like a normal Civic.

On top of being ugly, they are very expensive. If you’re Mr. Moneybanks and want to save your soul from 20-years of driving a giant Cadillac, the price of a novelty hybrid may not bother you much. However, the hybrids so far are compact cars. The base price (MRSP) of a Honda Civic is $16,000.00 (Canadian funds) while the Civic Hybrid weights in at a hefty $28,500.00. This isn’t a totally fair comparison (the hybrid has a fancy transmission and other features not available in the ordinary Civic) – but still, and extra $12,500? I could buy a Kia for that much.

Enter the 2004 Toyota Echo Hatchback. It is not a hybrid – but it is very good on a gas. This table shows how the Echo hatchback stacks up against some of the hybrids:

mpg city/hwy
Echo Hatchback (2004) 37/45
Civic Hybrid (2004) 47/48
Prius Hybrid (2003) 45/52
Honda Insight (2003) 61/68
IMPORANT NOTE:

When originally posted, I listed the Echo Hatchback milage as 42/54 mpg (city/highway). I got this info from the Toyota.ca website. However, it was misleading and innacurate as I posted it in comparison with the other figures. The Toyota.ca figure was using imperial gallons while all of the other model figures were using US gallons. An astute reader corrected me in the replies to this post. I have updated the figures to to US gallons so the comparison to the other models is accurate. While these more accurate figures show that the Echo Hatchback is less fuel efficient than I had originally though, I think it is close enough to the hybrids that my original point stands. Sorry for the confusion.

The fuel economy of this generation of hybrids is not yet worth (to me) the premium.

So, for now, I’ve leased a silver, four-door, 2004 Echo Hatchback. See some photos, and a 360° QTVR. I’m also pleased to report that it has a CD/MP3 player that is not ridiculously designed, as most are (photo).

 

96 thoughts on “Why I didn’t buy a hybrid car

  1. Up to now I had always thought that hybrid cars were super effcient (as in using electricity most of the time), I had no real reason for thinking that, but I guess I just thought that because, as is written here, the hybrid’s have barely better mileage then normal cars.
    Pat

  2. I am amazed that, along with running your web empire, organizing a conference, and taking care of life’s other duties, you were able to prepare a flawless Quicktime VR of your new car. Bravo!

  3. I trust Peter is being sarcastic and already knows this, but for the rest of you, I did steal the QTVR from the toyota site – for fear it would soon fall prey to linkrot.

  4. The money has to work – maybe a way of doing this would be for the govt to have 5 year pst holiday that starts at 100% and tapers off to nothing. The actual loss to the treasury would be small but maybe a trend would be set – tiher provinces would catch on and maybe also the feds – after all what are they going to do about supporting Kyoto?

    On the other hand the performance of your car is great – I beleive that the diesel golf is also very good

  5. Rob is right. Of course John Q. Consumer isn’t going to buy a hybrid car if it costs twice as much as a normal car. There has to be some incentives/mechanisms for Consumers to buy and/or some incentives/mechanisms for the car manufacturers to make the cars attractive/marketable to Consumers.

  6. I will admit I’m a sucker for a dark, sleek and “mean” looking car. With this said, then I’d have to admit I’m also very guilty of adoring cars that do nothing but suck up gas and most likely kill the enivronment just by sitting still, let alone when they are in motion. Why do all these Hybrid cars all look the same? When can they come up with a more sleek yet subtle design?

    I know that image is not everything, but it means something. I don’t want to drive something that I really find ugly simply becuse it’s a lot of money to invest. I want somthig that works well, lasts a long time, yet looks good. These hybrids are ugly and too “futuristic”.

  7. I checked on the mileage of Focus and see that at 26 mpg combined it is poorer than the Echo at 36 mph combined but note that it is rated 10/10 by the US EPA for emissions where the Echo is a 6/10. Maybe a typo. The diff in mileage would be the 1.5 litre engine of the Echo v. the Focus’s 2.3 litres. But, if emissions is true, why would that differ in favour of the Focus – burns more but does so more efficiently? Odd.

  8. Alan, those numbers are for the 2003 Echo sedan too – the fueleconomy.gov site doesn’t have info on the 2004 hatchback yet (though the advertised numbers are much improved over the 2003).

  9. That’s good. I have no loyalty to the new wheels so don’t get me wrong but I find the 6/10 really an odd statistic. It looks like the 2003 Echo is about 30% better at using up gas to go a mile but then is wasting 40% of what it does use compared to the Focus.

    Can you get emotionally attached to an Echo or Focus like VWs were so good at…oh, I forgot about your VW BBQ model…

  10. Funny that you should pick on the looks of hybrid cars, then buy a Echo, which is in my opinion several times uglier than any current hybrid, and in the top ten ugliest all time. Just my 2¢(US). I have the good fortune of getting to car pool about once a week in a friend’s Insight (the rest of the time I ride Boston’s faithful “T”). It’s slick, in my opinion, but the seating position is phenomenally low to the ground (great for drag, but tough to get in and out of). For reference, we (my girlfriend and I) own a (new to us) Saab 9-3, which for its size (a bad lot in these respects, in general) is quite good on gas and emissions, although, not nearly as good as we’d like. We couldn’t come close to affording a new hybrid, and couldn’t find used ones to consider. Yes, we get slightly better mileage than the original Ford Model T. We’ve come so far in 100 years: gone to the moon, but can’t raise fuel efficiency. How’d we make it without stopping to fill up? Was there an ExxonMobil on the dark side of the moon?

  11. The 2004 Echo Hatchback is, like Cuba and Red Rose Tea, only available to Canadians; our American cousins don’t get the model this year, and maybe ever. Pity.

  12. I, too, would like to see the Hybrid cars go a little more mainstream. The Civic Hybrid came out a year after I leased a Civic EX, but even if it had been an option to me, the pricing would have put it just out of reach. As the Hybrid is a pretty new technology, I would expect that their efficiency and gas mileage will improve significantly in the next 5 years or so.

  13. Update: after going through my first full tank of gas, I went about 600Km on the one tank. When filling up (and it was just about completely empty when I did), I got 38 litres in to a full tank.

    That puts me at about 6.3 litres/100Km (or 37.3 miles/gallon). This is less than Toyota’s states figures (city/hwy) 6.7/5.2 l/100km (42/54 mpg).

    I’ll post another update after the second tank.

    So far, I’m quite happy with my purchase. I’ll probably post a more detailed review after I’ve had more time with it.

  14. Congratulations on your echo! I have ridden in and driven one and it’s a great car. I would like to correct a couple things you said though.
    1. You can get a Civic Hybrid for less that 28,000 .Although I only know the Prices in American dollars the basic model runs from 20,000 up.
    2.The Prius gets 52/45 mileage because they built the technology to depend more on the electric motor at lower speeds.

    Also I would like to add that all the Hybrids have better emissions than the Echo. Fuel economy is not the only thing that we can watch to help the environment.

    Ben

    PS: Flame me all you want I like the way they look!

  15. $28,500 for a Honda Civic Hybrid?! Why so much more up there in Canada? I bought a Civic Hybrid last fall for $21,500 out the door. (U.S. Dollars) And Uncle Sam even gave me a $2000 tax credit on my taxes last year for buying one. I’m very happy with my purchase and would recommend one to anyone, especially when I’m getting 43mpg city and 51mpg highway in the real world. Sure it’s a little more expensive than a standard Civic, but it’s worth it.

  16. How was your experience at the dealer? When I’ve looked it’s been terrible. They went to the webiste to get the price, didn’t mention any specials, and wouldn’t budge on the mammoth 8% lease rate…

  17. Rob, my experience with the dealer was pretty insignificant. I knew what I wanted when I went in. I too was a bit surprised that they didn’t have much more info than the website – however, I think that’s more a case of the website having lots of good info than the dealer not having info. I didn’t expect to dicker – I had priced it out on the website too. The whole dealer experience was really quite insignificant.

  18. You compare a Echo hachtback with a Prius wich is about twice the size,
    how can you expect to get so much more out of it.
    This is not considering the better fuel emmissions.
    and for the insight, well you compare a 2000 model technology with a 2004, give Honda a chance to upgrade its insight
    On the other hand I have to agree with you on the 12 000 $ ( very cheap )

  19. I bought a 2002 Prius last November for $19,580 (US) plus tax and license fees. It’s really not fair to compare it to the Echo, which is smaller and cheaper in many respects (and IMO uglier). It’s more comparable to a mostly-loaded (Auto, AC, PW, PDL, alarm, cruise, CD, side air bags, etc) Corolla, which is ONLY about $5,000 cheaper. OK, you’ll never make your money back based only on gas savings, at least not in the U.S. So there is some altruism involved. It is classified as a SULEV, with about 80% less pollutants emitted than comparable-sized vehicles.
    I think it’s a fun car to drive, in the city. It’s got good low-end acceleration and a very smooth ride.
    Other financials: 3 years free routine maint. (everything)
    You theoretically spend less money on the brakes because they are used less (the generator is what normally slows the car down).
    The tax break is only a $2000 deduction (not a credit), worth about $600 at best (you may have to explain this to the sales guy) and it is being phased out.
    GOOD NEWS: The 2004 model is 5 inches longer, has interior room comparable to Camry, cuts 1 sec off 0-60 acceleration time with a more powerful motor, AND gets better mileage (55 to 61 city mpg, depending on whose story you believe). And it looks more conventional, for those of you who don’t want to stand out.

  20. I am considering a 2004 Prius and when talking with SM for the dealership, about leasing it through Toyota Leasing, he could not could not get a residual value on a 2003 model Prius whereas he had no problem getting a RV on the same model Corolla. Also the outside leasing people are not very interested in the Prius leasing. What is the problem? Are the expected long term maintenance the stumbling block?
    I would like to hear from Toyota and
    other leasing firms on this!

  21. Opinion: There is no solid reason for leasing a vehicle. Yes, your payments are lower, but you have to put (usually lots of) money down, which you don’t get back, you are restricted in total miles and are charged up the wahzoo for every mile you go over, and finally, you don’t get to keep the vehicle! Quite a racket these manufacturers and dealerships have in taking advantage of some idiot’s desire to drive a car they really can’t afford (All you young drivers with huge SUVs). How does this relate to hybrid vehicles? It doesn’t.

  22. Hello.
    I’ve been driving a Prius since December 2000, and must say it is the best car I’ve owned to date.
    The average fuel consumption over the last 26,000 miles is 46.8 mpg; that’s living close to sea level, but in the costal mountain range (lots of steep hills). I purchased it mainly for the SULEV rating that can get you a HOV lane sticker (this means you can drive in the carpool lane with only one occupant), as well as wanting to support Toyota in bringing this car into the US.

    Now, with child #2 here and soccer season coming, we’re looking for a hybrid mini-van! Anyone heard if Toyota is bringing their all-wheel-drive hybrid Estima to North America? Or is anyone else planning a minivan?
    I would prefeer the Toyota, since their new drive system is a PZEV (Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle), which is something like 10X cleaner than the current Prius.

    Oh, and count me in for LIKING the look of the Prius; I’ve been told it’s very cute by many people as well. At least I think they meant the car….

  23. We just put our money down for the new 2004 Prius – we were just as concerned with emissions as fuel economy, esp. living here in New York. I’ll blog about it when we get the car in December, but they are already allowing test drives, in case you feel like coming down to the city!

  24. I am considering buying the 2004 Toyota Prius. I am actually renting the car for the weekend from a Toyota dealership in Burlington, NC, Cox Toyota. I am concerned about gas mileage and emmissions, but care just as much about the functionality of a vehicle. A 4-door hatchback is the way to go. I have driven an Acura Integra 4-door hatch for the past 17 years (310,000 miles) and would not have anything else. I will post what I think of the 2004 Prius next week after this weekend of driving.

  25. Ian – let us know when you’ve got the car – I’ll link to your weblog posts from this thread.

    Robin – please do let us know how your weekend with the new Prius goes.

    Thanks guys.

  26. The 2004 Prius is a blast to drive…it is a lot faster off the mark than I thought it would be. It is also roomy with lots of headroom, plenty of leg space in the back seats, and it is a hatchback!!!! I made sure that my bike would fit into the car with both wheels still on it. The only let-down is that it did not get the gas mileage advertised…can’t imagine that racing other cars on the interstate or at stop lights had anything to do with the 43 mpg average…I was driving it as if it were a high performance sports car.

    I highly recommend this car. Two other male friends of mine drove it and were also very impressed. One said that it corners better than his Passat. Rent it and go for a ride.

  27. Great to read everyone’s posts here re: the 2004 Prius – my wife and I are considering one and will continue to monitor comments here for feedback on anyone driving it.

    I went for my first Prius test drive today – liked it once I got used to the gear shifter. I’ll go back and spend some more time with it, also test drive the Civic Hybrid which my car nut friends say I should try as well.

    I think, though, they don’t understand the big diff in pollution output, and especially considering the better performance / fuel economy of the new version Prius vs. the essentially unchanged Civic.

  28. I’ve been hoping to buy a hybrid for my next car, but I’m wondering about the long-term maintenance of hybrids and the safety factor of a light car. Is it too early to know about this? (Consumer’s Report says front-end collisions and side collisions are rated as “very good” and “good” in regard to safety.)Also, I thought it was too soon to expect to get a used one, but sure enough, one dealer had one. Why would someone turn in a perfectly good, practically new hybrid?

  29. It’s nice to see how others feel about the new Hybrid’s.

    I’ve looked at the Honda’s and the Toyota Prius. I feel the Prius wins hands down. There was an article in the November Popular Mechanics which praised the car, although I believe it was an advertisement.

    We put on about 35,000 miles a year and I’m just a little concerned about how the Prius will hold up. If anyone out there owns one and puts on a considerable amount of miles I would be interested in hearing your comments.

    Robin, Thanks for your idea about renting a Pirus, it’ll be a great way to get a feel for the car.

    Thanks for any help.

    Bill

  30. My 2003 Golf TDi gets 41 MPG city and 58 MPG highway. Not only am i burning less fuel i’m also producing less CO2 while burning my fuel than a hybrid. Car cost was 24K new……. To reduce emissions and make an overall more efficient hybrid i’d suggest that an electric/diesel car(With a particulate filter in the exhaust system.)be made. Actually, my Golf emissions are low but i can lower them by using biodiesel(Too bad VW voids your warranty if using Biodiesel because they only recognise biodiesel made in Europe.).

  31. I’m as much a conspiracy theorist as the next guy. However, I tend to think the slow adoption of electric vehicles has more to do with consumers (like myself) being cheap/lazy/stupid/greedy than it does with an evil oil oligarchy propping up the traditional auto industry.

    That is exactly what the oil companies want you to believe. I almost stopped reading your article at this point, but because you had the smarts to buy a hybrid I read on. consumers are generally stupid, lazy and greedy. They are also easily mislead by any business model that is fed to them. Evil oil companies are out there, don’t underestimate there power to take you $$$$$$. A few years ago gm yota and a few other companies came out with electric cars, that used no gas at all. GM stopped production right away, claiming “There was no demand for such a car.” The real reason was not that there was not any demand, but that it would take away from there revenues. Car manufacturers makes billions off parts, that is why they keep comming out with cars that have more and more parts, so they can charge more and more for installation ect. Electric cars are way more practical than todays gas fed dinosaurs. They require a lot less maintance and FUEl. Without maintance and fuel the big boys and oil companies don’t make there $$$$. Consumers never make the choice, big business does, I may sound like a conspirist, but the facts are there. Congrats on your purchase, if you were really looking cheaper option, look into converting a econo gas fed car into an electric car, and not let savage oil companies decide the world’s fate

    http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4214/build.html

  32. Conspiracies aside, I purchased a VW Golf TDI after considering fuel efficient gas cars as well as hybrids. I will admit that emissions were not in my top 5 considerations, and unfortunately one of my key considerations was the high mileage I put on my vehicle which is close to 200km a day, (roughly 120 miles), which works out to roughly 60,000km a year (roughly 40,000 miles).

    Diesels have a fantastic reputation for high mileage mainly highway driving, and I could not get this kind of information on hybrids. If taken care of I am hoping to get 400,000 – 500,000 km out of my new TDI, and unfortunately I did not have this comfort level with buying a hybrid. Has anyone out there being putting on this kind of mileage on their hybrid? I would be very interested in this feedback. As well, how do the batteries respond to living in a colder climate?

    Too late for this purchase, but I will surely be back in the market in 5-6 years.

  33. A couple of months ago, I got my new Toyota Avensis D4-D (2 Liter Diesel, http://www.toyota-europe.com/showroom/avensis/index.html) and it performs really well in terms of performance, fuel efficiency, emissions, safety (9 airbags) and confort. It isn’t that expensive, too. The top notch diesel model costs about ?24k (VW Golf V [the new one] with about the same equipment level sells for for ?28k!! [German prices with 16%VAT]). I get around 42-48 miles per gallon and that’s pretty okay for a car of that size and weight. The engine’s way cleaner than the TDIs sold from Seat, VW, Skoda and most other manufacturers. The 4-door model is even available with a particle filter which reduces emissions by another 80%.
    I’d only switch to a hybrid car if they’d be equipped with a diesel instead of a petrol engine, because I really miss the torque at lower revs on petrol cars. It’d be nice, not having to use the combustion engine in stop and go traffic.
    Concerning the Echo’s design: it’s been sold in Japan and Europe as the Yaris for years and years now and it sells pretty damn good over here. 🙂

  34. @Bill
    I wouldn’t recommend using Biodiesel in your TDI. We tried it for a couple of months in our Passat and it doesn’t perform well when it’s cold out (-10°C) and you have to change your oil filter all the damn time. The comes really unhandy when the car starts smoking at around 100mph on the highway and suddenly slows down to 20mph, and finally dying.
    Volkswagen, Seat, Audi and Skoda now prohibit the use of Biodiesel for their models, because they’re having nothing but trouble with it. Biodiesel is only safe to use in pretty old, not supercharged diesels.
    And remember, I’m talking about the certified, good, quality European Biodiesel…

  35. I must flame the first post.. hybrids are MUCH better on gas than “normal” cars. Hes comparing it to the echo hatchback, which is so good on gas it is better than some hybrids, but I wouldnt’ call it a normal car, no other cars come close.

  36. We bought a 2nd hand 4-door Echo sedan for $11.5K Australian – only 20 thousand Kms on the clock. Love it – cheap as chips to run, roomy enough for us 2 & the kid.

    I’d love to get the new Prius model, but it’s almost 4 times the price. That’s the problem – the Prius is a larger car, so Toyota are counting on a comparison to the next class up.

    They need to put a hybrid engine in the smaller car. I think there would be quite a big market for them there. If you’re sensitive to the environmental question, you’re less likely to be the kind of person who would spend big bucks on a car anyway.

  37. There is major mistake at the start of this thread!
    If you look at the specs for the Echo Hatchback on toyota.ca, you will see
    that they are using Cndn/IMPERIAL gallons for their mileage data, NOT US Gallons.
    Since the Echo is being introduced from the UK & European markets into Canada, the toyota
    folks are already comfortable with Imperial gallon terminology. Since the Imperial gallon is the de facto Cndn gallon (how soon many forget!), they probably see no reason to point it outon their website.
    Therefore Mr. Garrity’s comparison with Hybrids is a false one since his mileage data
    for them is in US gallons. Imperial galls = 4.5 litres; US galls = 3.785 litres
    The actual fuel economy for the Echo Hatchback is 35 mpg city & 45 mpg hwy in US gallons; this is just slightly different than the data for the Echo sedan on fueleconomy.gov.
    Therefore, the Echo Hatchback is not in the same league as the Hybrids; they will all get
    10-20 more miles per gall on the hwy & 10-15 more miles per gall in the city.
    Also, Toyota may not be selling the Echo hatch in the US but the related Scion model will be sold there. If someone from the US wanted to buy an Echo hatch in Canada and import it, it is not a big deal – I’ve heard the paperwork is simple enough. Having said all this, it is still a steep premium to pay an additional $Cndn. 6 – 8 K for the higher hybrid mileage. For me, the biggest drawback is that it is not clear whether any of the hybrids will tolerate a small trailer or roof racks. Suppose you wanted to lug a canoe or small dinghy and the trailer had a tongue wt of 50 lbs w/ a total load of 400 lbs. Would a hybrid’s electric motor malfunction?

  38. Mr. Garrity,
    You say that you got 6.3 litres per 100 km by the time of your first fill up.
    This works out to 44.5 miles per Imperial gallon which seems amazingly good.
    I’d be grateful for any more recent fuel econ. data you have. This car overall looks
    incredibly good for the money. Probably will buy one this year.

  39. Thanks you Steven,
    But for me the idea for the hybrid is also to try to drive ‘clean’ in the cities where the concentration of cars is very important, and still have a reasonnable performance on hwy.

  40. My uncle is going to buy me a car for college and i want to get a honda civic hybrid. I recently saw in the paper that they are now selling them for 18-19,000 new so i hope to find one used. However if i can find a car that is not a hybrid with near the same gas mileage i too would find it a waste of money for the considerably more costly hybrids and i am very glad that i found this article and was able to read all of the comments. Thank you for all the information.

  41. Conspiracy theories aside, the car companies will build what most of us want to buy. Business is business no matter how large or small. Don’t take apples to the market if everybody is buying oranges. Especially if they are more expensive. It is a pull, not a push.
    The technology attached to todays internal combustion engine is remarkable when you consider that the core principle has not changed in 100 years (spark ignites fuel to create energy).
    In fairness, I think the car manufacturers have done their part in maximizing the efficiency of engines, consider this (from General Motors:)
    * Since the mid-1960s, vehicle tailpipe emissions of hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and oxides of nitrogen (NOX) have significantly decreased. In the United States and Canada, HC, CO and NOX of passenger cars have decreased by 99 percent, 96 percent, and 95 percent, respectively.
    * Each gallon of gasoline results in about 9 kilograms of carbon dioxide when burned. The emissions of CO2 from our cars and light trucks have decreased significantly since the mid-1970s as fuel efficiency has increased. CO2 per kilometer from new U.S. vehicles has been reduced 56% for cars and 44% for light trucks since the mid-1970’s.
    * In the United States, the average fuel economy of our new cars and light trucks has increased 130% and 75%, respectively, since 1974.

    At this point it is not looking like the electric vehicle will be the model of the future. Too many issues with length of a charge, lack of power, weight, etc. Hydrogen power, fuel cell or otherwise,
    appears to be taking the lead in terms of practicality & usability. Producing a byproduct of clean water does not hurt. It is reportedly within 6-10 years of full market potential.

    My question is, have the other people kept up in reducing emissions – such as the petroleum industry?

  42. Jeff,
    You make some good points, but I think the hope for a hydrogen powered vehicle is wishful thinking. Basically you need a primary power source to generate the hydrogen. Oil & natural gas are expected to get increasingly scarce & expensive over the next ten years (see for example: dieoff.org, hubbertpeak.org, or the recent book by Richard Heinberg – “The Party’s Over”). There is likely not adequate infrastructure to harness enough from alternate sources like coal, wind, solar, biomass & nuclear to fully compensate.
    If you want to get truly awesome fuel economy, I suggest driving a smalll motorbike. My Kawasaki Eliminator 125 gets 115 miles per gallon, seats two, has two saddle bags for groceries & a windshield. BMW is now offering a similar bike but with a canopy structure for bad weather protection. Granted small motorbikes have a lousy emissions profile relative to a hybrid (esp. bad on HC emmisions), BUT, there have been great strides made lately with new catalytic converters. I am getting one from Taiwan that will cut my emissions by 60%+.
    WRT emissions from non-Car sources, I believe these have come down to varying extents. Things like Paint have typically 30% less solvent versus 30 yrs ago. Most new oil/gas power stations & incinerators have radically improved scrubbers.
    I guess the biggest problem is that these improvements have been partly offset by the increase in North America’s population & the consumerist/throw away society we’ve become. Also, people seem to travel, esp. fly more, and flying is the very worst way to travel in terms of pollution per passenger mile.

  43. Chris Andrews was right, my original post had inaccurate figures in that it compared US gallons to Imperial gallons. I guess if unit conversions can crash a mission to Mars, then I shouldn’t be too ashamed…

    Thanks for pointing it out Chris, I’m updated the post and added an note about the change.

    Sorry for the confusion.

  44. I purchased an ’04 Civic Hybrid, with an advertised 47mpg(hwy)/48mpg(city). We have been averaging about 34-36mpg since we’ve had it, with no signs of it going up. Has anyone else heard of this problem, what is being done about it, and what are you doing about it?

  45. Honda Civic Hybrid – world’s most expensive Ni-MH battery charger—–After test driving a 2004 Prius rental but finding none available I shelled out many thousands of the bank’s money on a left-over 2003 Civic hybrid. In 20+ years of driving, I’ve never failed to get a little better than the EPA est. until now. In carefully run milage tests with the rented 2004 Prius, milage was always 53 to 57 MPG after 75 to 145 mile days. The Civic hybrid cvt has made over 40 MPG only once so far (on the highway), including on some of the same roads the Prius did so well on. This is on par with a regular (and much less expensive) Civic or Corolla and is unacceptable. My friends drive an Echo, get 43 MPG, and spent $9000(US) less. The trip computer on the Civic is very much a “the tank is half full” kind of guy and tells tall tales of 45 to 53 MPG. But where is the gas going? It takes 12.5 gallons minimum to go 500 miles no matter what the computer says. One Honda service bulletin notes that the customer should be told that the calculated mileage “+/- 10%” is equivalent to the real mileage. This amounts to a carefully contrived system whereby the consumer is led to believe s/he is getting the product advertised but, in fact, is not. It is easy to make the civic computer display 53 MPG. It is easy to believe what you are being told to believe. It is difficult to go even 42 miles on 1 gallon of gas, though. One notable difference between the Civic and Prius is when the Prius’ gas pedal is pressed, the electric motor always assists. My Civic hybrid is good at keeping its Ni-MH battery pack charged but poor at reducing fuel consumption. Pressing the gas pedal always makes the engine RPM jump but seldom wakes the sleepy electric motor. The little electric engine that could, should, but doesn’t. I asked the dealer to make it work like a real hybrid. They said nothing is wrong with it and explained achieving better than the EPA est. is impossible. I am asking for my bank’s $ back tomorrow and am considering a lawsuit against Honda for fraud. I’m certain that if I can’t get better than 41.62 MPG and usually get 38 or less, others will be facing similar problems with their civic hybrid cvt’s as well. I hope no one else will fall victim to Honda’s “green scam” as I have.

    ps Brian, your mileage figures fall well below the published range of fuel economy values in the small print below the big “48” on the US window sticker and you may have more luck than I negotiating with Honda or the courts. Fill your tank the same way at the same pump and station and keep careful mileage records.

  46. Wow, I’m really sad to hear about the ‘inaccuracies’ with the Honda. That gives one pause, there might be hell to pay and please get back to us on what unfolds with you.

  47. This is the MOST informative site I found for comparing the hybrids, because it includes REAL info from REAL people, not just stats from companies that want my $. Since I plan to buy one TODAY if possible, you’ve done me a real service. I also appreciate that you accept correction, rathering than standing by what you said, regardless of new info. Thanks!

  48. wut is up? i think hybrid cars are a good solution to more polution. email me soon thanks!!!!!!

  49. I too have been contemplating the Echo vs Prius purchase. The Prius is almost out my of price range but I have wanted a hybrid car since I first heard of them. On the other hand I love the compactness of the Echo (drove a Hyundi pony as my first car and loved it) and the fact that the 2004 Prius is even bigger is a drawback for me. I am currently living in a downtown of a large city so the subway system does me fine for now and I don’t currently own a car but we have been considering moving and having to commute. I have test drove the Echo and was happy with it. this forum has definately giving me more to ponder but hasn’t really helped with my decision either way. I guess until I get out there and test drive the prius I can’t really make a decision for myself. I’ll check back here to see if anything else is posted that might sway my decision. good thing I have some time on my side…

  50. I forgot to add one thing. It might not be for everyone but has anyone (single/student) looked into the new mercedes benz smart car? I posted the site below. It’s suppose to be coming to Canada in the fall and the pricing doesn’t look to bad either. If you only really need a small two seater type transportation this could be an option. I’ve already said how much I love small cars, this to me is the bomb.

    http://www.thesmart.ca/
    http://www.mercedes-benz.ca/index.cfm?ID=3476

  51. Tracie – yeah, I’m glad to see the Smart car available in Canada. Part of the reason I went with a short least (3years) on the Echo Hatchback was in hope that comes 2006 there would be some cool new options.

  52. An informative site- I’ll be purchasing a 2004 Prius.Took one for a test drive in Toronto.I gained interest after seeing it at the Feb., 2004, Toronto Auto Show- a lot of interest at the show.The Smart car and the Audi A2 were two other high mileage vehicles that I learned about at the show.Neither is hybrid- just small cars with small motors although the A2 seats four and has a drag coefficient of .25, best of factory cars,- just under Prius’ .26. I e-mailed Audi and the reply was ‘Thank you for the interest, the e-mail will be filed to show that there may be some interest in bringing this car to Canada in the future’. For environmental and other reasons important to me, my next vehicle will be a Toyota Prius.P.S. I was hoping to pull a small trailer with the Prius but it is not recommended in the Prius manual.There are companies that build reciever hitches for the Prius, – not for towing but for bike racks, etc..

  53. I am about to purchase an Echo hatchback. Hated the sedan look, love the hatchback look – similiar to a Golf, but cheaper. Would love to try out the Smart car but it won’t be here for a while and it is significantly more expensive than the Echo – so there goes my gas savings. Maybe it’s worth it, but to me affordability is the name of the game here. Finally a new car I can afford that isn’t a junk box. The fact that it is so thrifty on fuel is nice bonus on top of being affordable. Would love a futuristic Insight with the flashy Buck Rogers display panels, but what price glory?

  54. We have had our Honda Civic Hybrid CVT for just over 3 months now and just had our 20,000mile service. It is averaging 40mpg doing mostly 70+mph on the interstates. We get 45-50mpg on flat ground at about 60mph. My wife & I have been traveling the country with the trunk & back seat full so we have lots of extra weight. Some things that have a dramatic negative effect on mileage: Using the A/C, low tire pressure, short trips (1-2 miles) on cold (below 32F) days. It’s a great riding car with plenty of acceleration. Now that gas is near $2/gal and higher, I have some hope of recovering the extra cost while enjoying this little beauty and satisfying my green instincts. It’s a keeper.

  55. I ‘ve had my hybrid civic for about 2 months now and I was shocked at the price of that thing hybrid or not it’s still a civic and it still looks the exact same as a normal civic and I was not pleased though it does save alot of money on my gas so it evens itself out i guess but still. What do you think?

  56. I wish they would offer a reliable, inexpensive, fuel-efficient, 4 door hatchback in the United States…. i.e…. Honda Fit, Toyota Echo Hatch, Mazda2, etc……

    I’ve read teasers about the Fit coming to the US but nothing confirming this….

    Anybody hear anything about this?

  57. Nice site. I’m looking to buy a Prius in the next month, but from what I hear, waiting lists are obscenely long. For everyone who already owns a Prius and can’t get the 50+ mpg in the city, I actually have a tip (if you guys actually come back to read this site):

    My friend owns a 2002 (2003?) Prius, and I’ve driven around with him a few times in it. He says that he gets 50+ mpg no problem. On the other hand, one of his neighbors got a Prius and could barely manage 40 mpg. It turns out that their driving habits made the difference in gas mileage.

    What you have to remember is: hitting your breaks wastes energy (gas). Even though the Prius does a good job converting most of that energy back into electric power, its not a 100% conversion, so you’re still losing energy. So when I say “driving habits,” I mean stomping on the gas, going 1/8 of a mile, and slamming on the brakes because of a red light or traffic. This kind of driving will kill your fuel efficiency in any car. The electric motor and brake system on the Prius mitigates this some, but it can’t perform miracles.

    My friend also tries to coast alot. There are long stretches on both local roads and highway where he tries to avoid using either the gas or the brakes for as long as possible. As he (somewhat insanely) puts it: its like a little game. The Prius “keeps score” (of your mpg), and you try and beat your old best score. I think you had to have been there…

    Anyway, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use your brakes or that you should drive like an old lady, but its really not necessary to keep accelerating after you see a light turn red 100 ft ahead of you.

    On a completely different note, is anyone else freaked out by how quiet it is at low speeds? That electric motor is, as far as I can tell, completely silent. Its the one car I can’t hear coming down the street, which I suppose is pretty nice. An all-Prius world would dramatically cut down on urban noise pollution.

  58. Hybrid – WHY ?
    Wife needed a new car – the ’93 4cyl standard minivan is showing it’s age. It was our 5th anniversary – last Feb 29th.
    She REALLY WANTS to use the carpool lanes and had to have an automatic. So she had to get either the Prius or the Honda.
    Both to me seem about the same as far as price goes –
    The Honda is a $16K (US) car going for $20K, and the Prius is a $24K car going for $20k. But all the dealers in the area said the Prius was going to take 7 months AND there was the niggling fact SHE COULDN’T SEE OVER THE DASH.
    So on Feb 29th we bought the underpowered Civic which is getting 36mpg overall for the first 1500 miles. With the present price of gas we might recoup the extra $4K by our 7th anniversary, in 2012.
    But she gets to use the carpool lanes.

  59. Also check out the new SCION cars. They are Toyotas and have the Echo engine. Same efficiency with slightly better looks. Plus they have some really cool add ons.

  60. Here is an interesting opinion piece, from the trade magazine ‘Automotive News’, from someone that is supposed to be in the know
    ——————————————————————————–

    KEITH CRAIN: Let’s rethink our engine types

    Automotive News / April 19, 2004

    A couple of weeks ago, I drove a remarkable car that gets about 70 mpg on the highway. It wasn’t a prototype. It’s being manufactured and sold to consumers in large quantities.

    It was powered by a diesel with a turbocharger. It is a Smart, and it’s made by a division of DaimlerChrysler in France. It’s a two-seater that is perfect for highly congested cities like Paris, Rome or Tokyo.

    But it’s not a hybrid, and it’s not electric. It is a diesel. It uses direct injection, and it’s quiet and soot free. It has zippy performance as well.

    If we want to improve fuel economy, our regulators ought to make it easier for automakers to put clean, modern diesels on the road.

    The EPA’s rules for 2007 don’t outlaw diesels, but they do set high hurdles.

    More than half of new vehicles sold in the United States aren’t cars. It is ridiculous that practically the only diesel-powered vehicles you can buy in America are huge trucks. Millions of pickup trucks and SUVs ought to be potential diesel vehicles.

    We shouldn’t blame just the EPA. If it changed clean-air rules tomorrow, which it could do if it understood the situation, the domestic industry couldn’t put a diesel engine in a Ford F-150 or a Chevy Tahoe or a Chrysler Pacifica for several years, if ever.

    While the hybrid gasoline-electric powertrain is an interesting engineering exercise, it is still an impractical and not particularly economical method of building vehicles. The mileage for hybrids isn’t all that remarkable either. With its high manufacturing costs, it’s not a viable solution for mass-marketed vehicles.

    There is no better vehicle mix in the world for diesel engines than in the United States. With all the trucks and SUVs, diesel engines would be appropriate and efficient. Both light and medium pickups and SUVs would be perfect vehicles for the diesel engine.

    First, the EPA must wake up and understand the modern diesel engine, which is incomparably cleaner than yesterday’s passenger-car diesels.

    The EPA must be flexible enough to allow vehicles sold in the United States to use diesels.

    Then it will be up to the U.S. and Asian manufacturers to get those diesels in their trucks as soon as possible, which is easier said than done.

    Americans deserve a fuel-efficient choice.

  61. I too have been weighing the options in terms of a decent fuel efficient car – my trust 90 Integra which has served me extremely well is near its end – and it came down to an Echo Hatchback or a Golf TDI.

    I’m leaning toward the Echo since the Golf is wayyy more costly and I’m not confident about VW’s long term reliability.

    The drag about the current Echo Hatchbacks in Canada is that they are still dogged by that ‘small=cheap’ marketing mindset. I was in Switzerland last year for awhile and an acquaintance had a German-market Echo (Yaris) Hatchback – its got a tach, leather, really nice plastics, rear discs brakes etc. – all the basics you’d want, but are lacking here. http://www.toyota.de/showroom/yaris_2003/gallery.html

    I emailed Toyota Canada to ask if these things would come here soon, and they sent the following:

    “Currently there are no plans to offer a European options on the
    Toyota Echo. However, we have noted your interest in this option and
    have forwarded it to our Product Planning department for their
    information and future consideration.

    Maybe I’ll just buy a used Echo 4-dr for now and see what comes up in a year or so… unless the Audi A2 gets here first – sweet: great looks, performance, and a really roomy ride! Smart’s are neato, but a bit impractical for a 1-car household.

    Peace,
    AD

  62. We tried to buy a 2004 Toyota Prius down here in Atlanta, GA but the wait list is over a year. Also, to get on the waiting list you have to place a deposit. No thanks! Many folks want this car, yet Toyota failed to produce enough to satisfy the need. I considered a used Prius, but, in my disgust with the situation (silly I know), I went out and bought a new 2004 Civic Hybrid. I’m happy I did. After driving the car for about a week, I can easily get mileage in the mid to high 40’s, highway, and low to mid 40’s, in the city. The car is so quiet. The gas engine shuts off at traffic lights, and the “lean burn” technology of the gas engine allows it to run on fumes when coasting on slight inclines and of course down hills. …. Also low end tork is reasonable and makes for a nice city car. Sorry Toyota, you lost a customer. …

  63. Why hasn’t anybody talked about the Honda Civic HX (non-hybrid) which has an estimated fuel rating of 36/44 mpg (with automatic transmission), and 2004 MSRP of $13,710? It’s considerably cheaper than most hybrid models, and only gets 1 MPG less than the Echo Hatchback despite being in the next class of car (compact versus subcompact). Don’t have to hassle with importing it from Canada either.

    Back in my college days I had an ’85 Honda CRX HF that was rated 44/51, averaged 48.5 mpg for me… nowadays, seems like manufacturers should have been able to improve on those numbers from 20 years ago, but instead it’s gotten worse unless you go hybrid…. any conspiracy I should know about?

  64. Steve,
    Welcome to the hybrid fray. I have been an owner of a 2002 Prius for some time now and I can tell you that the poster who said the mileage is “not all that different” hasn’t driven one for any length of time. We routinely get over 50 mpg in town and about 48 mpg on the highway. The only vehicle we have that even approaches this is a twelve year old Toyota Celica that gets 37 mpg. The reason why these numbers seem to be reversed from the expected with normal gas engines is that the Prius in town runs more on electricity than it does on the highway. The car is very quiet, especially at stop signs, where the gas engine stops completely and doesn’t start again for a while, even when pulling away from the stop. It will not start until one does something assertive with the throttle. Slow accelerations will maintain power from the electric engine exclusively until about 20 mph or until the computer tells the gas engine to start up to charge the battery cells. I bought the car used with about 11000 miles on it for about $15000 dollars. We drove a hard bargain at the end of the month. I am not sure where your price numbers came from but at Edmunds.com the MSRP is about $20000. I agree that the Honda hybrids are more expensive, but one should look at the way both companies came at the problem. Toyota made an electric car with a gas backup and Honda did it the other way. I would imagine that in the Phoenix area one might buy a Prius for about $22000 new. I believe that these little cars are the coming thing with fuel prices here in the Phoenix area at well over $2. I think that a lot of people are buying SUVs from a marketing standpoint (macho). We see a lot of Hummers down here that, I suspect, have not and will not see an hour of “out in the sticks” desert driving.
    Good luck with your new car. Jack

  65. I’ve got an ’02 Focus ZX-3 5 speed manual that now has 24000+ miles on it. It’s driven every day to work, a 30 mile combination of city/hiway each way. I’m averaging 29-31 mi/gal(us). Paid less than $15000 new, with every option except leather, and I have a rather heavy foot. Unless the car companies can put together a hybrid with at least 25% better stats, It’s just not economically feasable to buy one, unless gas goes to $5.00/gal.

  66. Why I *did* by a hybrid car.

    Just some of my reasons for going the hybrid route:

    1) low emissions. I’ll admit it, I’m an earthy-crunchy type, and if I have to travel, I’d rather do it with the least pollution possible. Your kids can thank me later.

    2) Technology. The technology behind these cars is staggeringly cool. The fact that a car can be re-engineered to use an alternate power source without any changes from the user’s perspective is very impressive. Your grampa put gas in his car and drove. You put gas in your car and drive. So do I. To drastically change something internally without breaking that tradition is quite a feat.

    3) fuel economy. I’m getting 2x the milage I used to get. Other cars can do it too, but not as clean or as neat.

    4) someone will eventually port MAME to the dashboard screen. 😉
    http://www.mame.net Want to play spy hunter for real? j/k

    5) having the engine kill at stop lights is creepy-cool.
    I’m used to driving cars that kill at stop lights, but for different reasons.

    6) tax breaks. I got a 2000 tax credit when I bought my prius, taking the car’s price under 20k. I think that’s totally reasonable for a car as equiped as the prius.

    7) ok, this is the most important one for me: I wanted to send a direct signal to car manufacturers that we are in need of a change.
    Gas powered cars haven’t improved effeciency or emissions enough over their lifetime to warrant a future in our world. Gas is a dead end, literally and figuratively. We’ve known this for years and have done nothing about it until recently.

    Yes hybrids are a stepping-stone to other, superior technologies, but we have to start somewhere. When something better comes along, I’ll buy one of those, and sell my prius to someone who is currently driving an all gas car. Everyone wins.

    -jeff!

  67. I wanted a Prius, as it’s the most economical car that can fit a child seat and a 100+ lb dog without squishing us in the front seat. Due to the long waiting list we are leaning towards trading in our SUV instead of our car. We are now on the waiting list for the hybrid Toyota Highlander, which they tell us we should be able to get in January 05.
    Does anybody have any comparison in price and mileage between the Highlander hybrid and the Ford Escape hybrid?

  68. Jim, on April 5th asked why not an Echo Hatch in the US?

    Jim, call your nearest Toyota dealer across the border and they’ll sell you one. It’s legal to import. We did it in October 2003 and love the car.

  69. David,

    What about warranty, service and parts? I’m sure that an American dealer won’t honor the warranty, correct?

    Jim

  70. Jim,
    Warranty is good in the USA. Major parts for engine and drivetrain are Echo. Body parts obviously will have to be imported from Canada if there is a need. I saw my first Echo Hatchback at a Washington State Toyota dealer who had purchased it in Canada and was selling it on their lot as a used car.
    If you want good answers, call your nearest Toyota dealer across the border.
    40 MPG all the time with our automatic RS model. Roomier than our Subaru Impreza.
    David

  71. I recently read an article in Jane magazine that kind of goes along with the post Jim made earlier about diesel. The article was talking about a diesel engine running on veggie fuel (a.k.a. biodiesel). Without getting into the whole article it had this website for more information… http://www.grassolean.com I looked at the site abit and it looked interesting. If you are looking into ecofriendly alternatives give the site a look, I’m not fullly promoting anything on that site I barely had the chance to really look over it myself but what i did see was interesting so I thought I’d pass it along.

    -Tracie

  72. A few corrections. The CIVIC lists for 20K not 28K as you note. I have one and get over 50 mpg with a high of 74 mpg on a 40 mile round trip. It does best in city driving.
    The other important factor in the emmission rating a Prius is SULEV super Ultra Low emmission Vehicle. An echo only ulev. It does make a diiference if we all drive cleaner and drive less !

  73. I drive a civic 2003, never know and never care to take a look at the engine…what i know is that my car is still running….from point A to point B…environmentalists—>use bicycle…motorists—>continue with your cars…jojo the jobor

  74. I am seriously considering a 2004 PRIUS. Know why? I really don’t give a rat’s backside about the hybrid environmental aspect at all, just want a Toyota reliable/quality car that looks as cool as the PRIUS. Love love love the hatchback and the futuristic profile and front end. Why can’t we get imaginative designs like this in a plain old gas engined car at a reasonable price? Do we have to suffer through Corolla Civic Camry Accord Cavalier SUV beige suburban crap forever? Bring on some design imagination and kill the SUV, for God’s sake!!

  75. I bought in 2000 when Hybrids weren’t available so the best choice was a Golf TDI. In the subsequent years it’s been overwhelmingly obvious that I made the right choice. Hybrids are basically runabouts. Here to there appliances that have their strength on the daily city routes.
    The TDI’s OTOH, are hiway cars. Ok in the city but really shine when the going gets fast. Since most of my driving is hiway but not necessarily fast 🙁 , I get 50 mpg all the time.
    Still, that Escape looks interesting.
    My biggest caveat: these things are heavily subsidized but the makers to move them. What happens when they get tired of that. And how much to replace that battery pack?

  76. You neglected to mention the Honda Civic HX, an economically competitive alternative to hybrids included in your list.

    My 2002 Honda Civic HX / 5 SPD is driven 27500 miles per year, as I have ~100 mile round trip highway commute each day. I somewhat obsessively track the mileage on this car every time I refill it, and the car consistently performs at 40 – 42 miles per gallon, with over 60000 miles on it. And yes, I treat speed limits as ‘suggestions’.

    If you purchased a hybrid, you may not want to read further, … I paid $13700 + tax for the car out the door ( I live to negotiate ), with AC, CD and all-weather mats, and I bought it new. Further, the car is simple, and has incredibly low maintenance requirements. I have replaced tires and oil. The timing belts and spark plugs do not require replacement until 110000 miles. You cannot find a better value, normalized to cost per mile, in any other car.

  77. I wish Honda still sold the 1992 through 1995 Civic hatch (CX, DX, VX) which I consider to be the high point in Civic evolution. In subsequent years the Civic’s size has gone up and its MPG’s (except for the hybrid) and nimbleness have gone down. In the summer, my 92 Civic CX hatch (with 360,000 miles on it) routinely gets 55MPG (US) in a mix of 80% highway/20% city driving. This drops to 46MPG in the winter. I keep on driving it because I can’t find any new car that combines its level of MPG’s with the ability to carry 2 large dogs (Irish wolfhounds) in the back with the seats down. I recently test drove the Scion Xa (the closest thing to a Echo hatch sold in the US) and found that although its interior space, handling, and braking were quite good, it was slower accelerating (the dealership only had automatics in stock) than my Civic and I couldn’t stomach going from a 55MPG car to a 38MPG car. Why does the Xa get so much worse mileage than the Echo hatch? The Insight, Civic, and Accord hybrids don’t have the room to haul my hounds and the 04/05 Prius is so rare in my neck of the woods that I haven’t been able to scope one out to see if they have enough headroom under their fastback roofline (with the rear seats down) to carry 2 wolfhounds. Although the upcoming SUV hybrids could carry my dogs, they wouldn’t meet my mileage or nimble handling requirements. The Honda Fit is rumored to be arriving late next year and I’m hoping it will prove thriftier with gas than the Xa. So at this point I ‘m still waiting for a practical 2 or 4 door hatchback (hybrid or not) to be sold in the US that can match MPG’s with my current car.

  78. Since few states demand low emissions, in most states except for CA and a couple New England states, the Honda Civic Hybrid comes as an ultra low emissions vehicle, ULEL, rather than a Super low emissions vehicle (SULEV), or the lowest, PZEV, partial zero emissions vehicle. Therefore, buying a Honda Civic Hybrid may not be as green as consumers would hope.
    I think we all need to work with our state legislators to essentially copy CA’s good laws that brings the lower emissions cars to their state. (For example, you can get a Civic Hybrid with PZEV ratings in CA, but not in MD).
    According to Honda’s website, the Union of Concerned Scientists, or( something like that- a steadfast group which has been trying to measure and prevent global warming) said that Honda’s fleet as a whole has far lower emssions than other companies. They make trucks with cleaner emissions in gas hog SUV’s for people who will buy that sort of thing anyway.
    (Rear vision compromised for me in Prius-fix that, Toyota.)

  79. Why do the lights burn as long as the engine is running on some Van Vehicles. Can the driver turn the lights off from a switch on the dash panel or any place else inside the vehicle while the engine is running?

    Thank you,
    Leo Epps

  80. Hi Leo,

    The lights are on all the time by design. They’re referred to as “daytime running lights” and cut down on accidents by making the vehicle more visible in all conditions.

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  83. While it is now 2005 and long after the original article, I found the topic interesting as I am in the same dilemma right now. I currently drive an Avalanche, as we have a cottage and I am always hauling lumber, tools, boat, etc. However, the cost of gas is getting way too high. So I am looking at a better fuel economy vehicle.

    I have put together a pretty intense spreadsheet with all about 25 possible choices, annual mileage, cost of gas, trade-in, outstanding loan, and so on. WHen I look at gas savings alone, the Ford Escape Hybrid comes out on top. However, when I take into account the cost of the vehicles, the payback on the Ford Escape is over 5 years and near the bottom of the pack. And this doesn’t take into account the possible higher cost of maintenance if something happens to the Hybrid system – which has to be more complex to repair and a limited set of knowledge at the dealerships.

    However, all the manufacturers are offering incentives and when I went to the Ford web site this week, I checked their rebate calculator and I can get about $5,000 off the MSRP (which I was using to make the comparisons – Canadian dollars btw.) Now, the Ford Escape jumps to the top.

  84. I think Tracy (sorry if I’ve spelt that wrong) makes a good point about the Smart car. We have a lot of these over here in Blighty and even a sports coupe version which is, apparently, great fun. I have driven the normal Smart for two a couple of times and it would definitely be my vehicle of choice if I was going to be remotely responsible about car ownership which, I’m afraid, I’m not (well I try, I drive a wierd thing you’ll never have heard of which is made just down the road from me. It’s only a 1.8 and it’s mostly plastic so it does 30 – 35mpg which is better than most SUVs or people carriers… but I digress). Where was I? Oh yes… smart cars.

    You can also park smart cars back or front-in between other cars on the street because they’re only as long as a normal car is wide. Just two seats but there is a boot and you can get luggage in. They go about 90mph too – should you ever need to. Semi-automatic gear box is horrible but then you have lots of autos right and I only hated it because I drive a manual? They do about 50 miles to the gallon at least and the emissions are very good. With combo cars I always worry that I’m just polluting the atmosphere via a power station rather than via the exhaust. A smart is almost the cleaner option!

    A second course would be to convert to LPG. If you guys have the option of lpg (excuse me for not knowing I’m a complete hick). You get slightly less performance but it’s cheaper and cleaner and you only have to do one in five fill ups with standard petrol/gas. Lots of cars have it here in the UK…. or you could be really out there and be like the guy in the next town from me who runs a WWII Citroen Traction on used chip fryer oil! Apparently, people pay him to take that away!

    Cheers

  85. I agree with a previous writer who thinks the Civic has gotten too heavy and not as fuel efficient after about the 96 model year. In fact I was in the market for a new car, always wanted a Civic, and scheduled a test drive anticipating buying one. I even gushed the Civics praises to the salesman before the test drive. Imagine my horror when the Civic turned out to be as big as a 1990 Camry! It was big and it was SLOW and I realized I wasnt buying it and had to tell the salesman that! That was five years ago and I went out and bought an ECHO and never looked back. I agree hybrids are a ridiculous proposition. You pay an $8000 premium to save $2000 in gas over the life of the car, assuming you have it for 125,000 miles. Doesnt anybody do the math anymore? But there are other reasons to own an ECHO. They include cavernous interior space, far and away the easiest car there is to get into and out of, nimble driving and parking it in the city, and Toyota reliability. Its such a shame it isnt selling well.

  86. has anyone tried using ethenol blends in there car, I use to drive a 92 cutlas suppreme and I noticed about a 50km increase per tank, and I am the kind of person to drop the pedal and squeal the tires, as for the hybrids for me its all about the cost of driving, and with the high cost of fuel and no end in sight for the increases, the Prius is looking like the best option and its fuel economy has got better for the latest model according to toyota at least, I would have to see when I drop the pedal on it

  87. I’ve wondered about the energy used and pollution created when these hybrid auto batteries are manufactured. The materials used require mining, the manufacturing of the batteries must use considerable energy and produce some pollution. Has anyone done energy/pollution calculations on battery production?

  88. Hi, I am writing a project on hybrids, and one fact that you have failed to mention is that hybrids produce about half as many greenhouse gases. Automobiles are the leading cause of global warming (they produce 1/3 of all greenhouse gases) and by cutting greenhouse gas emmision by one half, we would significantly lower arctic ice melt and other global warming issues. If every person in Canada and the Us bought a hybrid, we would remove 200 million metric tons of greenhouse gases from the air per year Its for this reason that I believe hybrids are worthwhile to purchase.

  89. Hey folks….On the gas mileage issue…IT DEPENDS HOW U DRIVE….I feather my wee Echo RS and the difference is astouding. When I’m driving with a heavy foot…I get less. Duh..The Echo RS loves to rev and and it is surprisingly peppy.A fun ,inexpensive…and yes CUTE car!

  90. I question that 1/3 of all greehouse gasses.The earth is at least 75 water. The remaining 25 % land is only inhabited by a ? % of humans. We do not know of such matters as we haven’t studied the effects of global warming for long enough to say with any degree of accuracy. Not to mention how does one depose of the batteries from these hybrids, and ironically the batteries are made from plastic which is made from oil products. Anyone else care to enlighten me with facts that can be verified. Long live the Ehco:^)….RS.(sorry the trunk models don’t do it for me)
    GREG

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