Acts of Volition

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Bruno Figueiredo -

I think the logo looks great, but it doesn't scale well. The 16x16 icon is unrecognizable in the applications window and in the taskbar (i'm talking Windows here).

And, why is it named Thunderbird yet? They had to change the name for Firebird. Firebird and Thunderbird were similar and it showed a connection between them. Now, Firefox and Thunderbird? Heck, it looks like a name for a platform kiddies game. I think they should rename the latter to ThunderFox or something.

I know this isn't the right place for this, but I think that we need better tabbed browsing in Firefox. I keep closing all the tabs 'cause I hit the general close button.

In Word you have the MDI close button next to the general close and it's very difficult for me to engage in error.

Also, as a tab has his own back and forth buttons I think it needs a visual clue to link those buttons to the tab.

Jens.B -

Bruno Figueiredo wrote:
> as a tab has his own back and forth buttons I think it
> needs a visual clue to link those buttons to the tab

The stop and reload buttons and the location bar also belong to the current tab, but would you try to link them to the tab, too???

Steven Garrity -

Bruno - the MozillaZine Forums would be a better place for this, but your request has been fixed. In the recent nightly builds of Firefox (and in the upcoming 0.9 release), you are prompted with confirmation box when you try to close the window with multiple tabs open.

Bruno Figueiredo -

Well, Jens.B, actually all the buttons on the toolbar are linked to the tab, if we think about it? Why not link them visually? And Steve, the prompt doesn´t fix it either. It's a problem of Defensive Design.

But I'll ramble about this in the apropriate place.

Still, about the icons and name branding, I'd like to know Steve's opinion on what I said...

angelday -

> I think the logo looks great, but it doesn't scale well.

Exactly, for the small versions (speaking of 16x16 in Windows world which is still an issue) details should be used instead of the whole artwork.

This has been my number one complaint since FireFox came out with the new branding. At 16x16 FF looks like an orange embryo to me sitting in my quicklaunch pad the whole day long. ;)

Going on with off'ing: here is a cool re-do of FireFox icon which is a blast. (http://www.deviantart.com/view/5183351/)

Anonymous Coward -

> think the logo looks great, but it doesn't scale well. The 16x16 icon is unrecognizable in the applications window

Spot on! Such designs should be built from 16x16/32x32 out. Current appears to be the opposite. A simple enlargement of the head would change matters.

Steven Garrity -

Criticism of the icons at smaller sizes is acknowledged and appreciated. It's something we're working to improve. Neither the Firefox or Thunderbird icons are really frozen yet - tweaks may come.

starvingartist -

Great job on the branding. I have a question though... how well does the blue portion stand out when using the default XP Luna theme? Even Microsoft had to alter the IE icon to a light blue shade. Any screenshots of it in action?

Jeffrey Bacon -

I agree, the large icon looks good but the small icon needs a different design with a more prominant envelope. The small icons can be a fairly different design and that's ok as long as the colour scheme is the same.

Don Morris -

Wonderful artwork...where are the T-shirts?

Bruno Figueiredo -

What about the name branding? Firebird and Thunderbird seemed connected, but Firefox and Thunderbird doesn't.

I think ThunderBird should be renamed...

René Wuttke -

I completly dislike the name 'Firefox' and am glad that Thunderbird wasn't renamed. Thunderbird has a background from Native American mythology and fits in really nice. I think one should rethink Firefox rather than changing Thunderbird to a completely meaningless ThunderFox. Don't make the same fault twice.

Olivier Mascia -

> I completly dislike the name 'Firefox' and am glad that Thunderbird wasn't renamed.
> Thunderbird has a background from Native American mythology and fits in really nice.

Maybe and that's just fine, but this means few (or nothing) to everybody else in the world, anyway.

> I think one should rethink Firefox rather than changing Thunderbird to a completely meaningless ThunderFox. Don't make the same fault twice.

Changing from firebird to firefox wasn't a mistake.
Choosing firebird, when it was used by another open source project for much longuer, was a mistake. Firefox if the correction of the initial mistake.

I perfectly live with FireFox the browser and ThunderBird the email client. I don't need these animals to be related to be pleased at these excellent softwares.

Bertitus -

Why not browzilla/surfzilla and mailzilla?

Steven Garrity -

The names for Firefox and Thunderbird are staying as they are. A lot of careful consideration went into both.

Andy COllier -

I personally like the new Firefox and Thunderbird branding identities. I also think that stylistically Firefox and Thunderbird do seem connected and that the names are complimentary enough, I am glad you aren't considering renaming Thunderbird, Thunderfox wouldn't make much sense.

I'm excited about the new image for Mozilla's app's, keep up the good work guys!

Al O'Neill -

Is it just me or does the new Thunderbird logo look more like a friendly blue bird cuddling that envelope? Not very 'thunder-ish... I do like the colours, thoguh.

I hope they stick to the idea that these are code anmes for the development releases, and keep the Mozilla name for the 2.0 release.

Andy COllier -

I think the 'suite' itself will be Mozilla 2.0, and that the app's will retain their own names. Like Microsoft Office contains Word, Excel, etc... Mozilla 2.0 will contain Firefox, Thunderbird, etc..

But I am talking out my earhole here, other more learned associates may disagree with me...

John -

Why not call them Netscape? Navigator and Mail. Lots of people know the name Netscape. Maybe AOL owns the brand name, but since they halted development, what would be the harm of donating to Moz?

Jason Tackaberry -

Just my two cents on the naming issue: Back in February, I went to visit my mother, and set up Firefox (it had just been released with the new name) and Thunderbird. She uses both every day, and from what I can tell is very happy with them.

But when talking to her, she still confuses the names. She remembers Mozilla, but she continually mixes up Firefox and Thunderbird, never remembering which is for which, and in fact she regularly refers to Firefox as "Fire... Fire ... Fire-whatever."

If she represents the average user (she may or may not, I don't know), then Firefox and Thunderbird are abysmal failures as names/branding. She knows these two applications are part of the Mozilla project's umbrella, and she would easily remember Mozilla browser and Mozilla Mail. But, of course, these names are currently part of Seamonkey.

It may not be fair to judge the names right now, because they're not really launched, full, 1.0 projects yet. But my understanding was that when -- whenver it happens -- Seamonkey is phased out and Firefox and Thunderbird become the primary platforms, they would be renamed to Mozilla Mail and Mozilla Browser. Indeed these names are easy to remember, but the rebranding would cause a lot of confusion and negate all the effort that was put into creating the identity (and the utterly astoundingly beautiful icons, I might add).

Please don't take this as overly negative. I love the software put out by the Mozilla project and I want it to succeed in world domination. But I have strong reservations about the naming issues, and the confusion surrounding them, based on what I've seen.

Cheers,
Jason.

Bruno Figueiredo -

I didn't even considered that issue. Why all the comotion on branding if it's all going to waste. As soon as they become the mozilla suite, goodbye firefox and thunderbird logos, the whole identity and all.

Or am I missing something? Will they retain their names? Won't that be even more confusing?

And, why do we need a different application for mail and web? I think one app for both would be more suitable... But that's just my opinion.

Steven Garrity -

The naming issue is closed. Firefox and Thunderbird are the names.

Constructive criticism of names is understandable, but it should be understood that they will not change.

René Wuttke -

> The naming issue is closed. Firefox and Thunderbird are the names.

Nice to hear that. The apps are connected anyway by the "prefix" 'Mozilla' and by the fact that both are animals.

mgl -

Back on icons:

starvingartist asked,

>... how well does the blue portion stand out when using the default XP Luna theme?

Not great. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a beautiful icon, but I only use the 16x16 version, and it's quite close to the Luna blue, not to mention impossible to see properly at that resolution.

Robert Morris -

>Why all the comotion on branding if it's all going to waste.
>As soon as they become the mozilla suite, goodbye firefox
>and thunderbird logos, the whole identity and all.

At first they were planning on calling them Mozilla Browser and Mozilla Mail once they reached 1.0, but they got so much momentum going behind the Firebird and Thunderbird names that they decided not to make any radical name changes. (The whole "let's call it Mozilla Browser" thing may have been just a quick solution they came up with to appease the Firefox database people, anyway.)

So, they will keep their names--even Thunderbird, which, fortunately, didn't have to go through anything like Firebird/fox. (Also: for those who want it to be Thunderfox, aside from the fact that the name is already solidified, keep in mind that a firefox is a real animal; a thunderfox is not.)

And after the 1.0 status is reached for these, I believe the suite will be put in "maintenance mode" and only updated as needed, but nothing in way of big changes; Firefox and Thunderbird will then be the focus. (But I still have a feeling lots of people will work on the suite.)

>And, why do we need a different application for mail and web?
>I think one app for both would be more suitable... But that's
>just my opinion.

If you like them integrated, use the suite--aka, Seamonkey. But the Firefox (then called Phoenix) people thought that the suite got bloated, had a poor UI resulting from all sorts of issues, and wanted to redesign the browser. Thunderbird was then started for similar reasons, and there are speed and UI advantages to having them separate, which is the whole point of their existence. So they'll never integrate--that's part of what got us into trouble in the first place. (Not that the suite is bad, but especially for most home users, particularly those who just want a browser, it's a little complex. I'm a suite user myself and don't plan on changing until Firefox is at least 1.0.) But there is now a hook in Firefox that allows it to start Thunderbird, so that should hopefully help out those who miss such a feature. (It'll be in the next release.)

taestell -

I think all of this new branding is excellant. The icons look great, the product names have a common theme but are different enough to prevent confusion, and the products themselves are great.

My question is, why doesn't the branding team make a new default skin for each of the apps that uses a common icon set? The default themes for the Suite are not user friendly and definately do not promote the new end-user focus of Mozilla, Firefox uses the "Cute" (Qute?) theme, and I'm not sure what Thunderbird uses (I'm stuck with web-based email). It seems like there should be a common look in each product. It also should be officially made by Mozilla, not just a skin made by someone that we adopt as the official skin.

Or is this already planned/existant and I'm just unaware of it?

aral -

I love the look, however I need to echo the scaling criticisms mentioned above. I second the Anonymous Coward, above, in that these designs should be built from 16x16 up.

Also: The posture of the bird is very introverted, closed. Although it perhaps conveys the feeling that it is protecting the mail, it would look much more confident if its wings were arched upwards instead of down with the mail between them.

Bruno Figueiredo -

I'm not even considering how that logo would look in only 16 system colours. Just recent Windows versions are capable of displaying icons with a larger color depth.

I think this also wasn't considered. And the fact that the design, though beautiful, was made in illustrator. There are specific icon design software that automatically does the smaller versions of the logo considering the larger version. Using such a piece of software would be easier to do an icon that looked good on various sizes.

Alun Bestor -

I love the new logo to bits! :) And I adore the synergy it has going with the Firefox icon (I would be interested to hear what tweaks are proposed to the Firefox icon to bring them more in line...)

Unfortunately I have to agree that the 16x16 icons lose too much clarity - which is a real shame, given the full versions are so damn good. I hope there's a solution that doesn't have to trade quality for clarity. Hell, I almost started using application icons on my desktop again, just so I could see Firefox and Thunderbird in their full 48x48 glory :)

Brodie -

I like the icons except for 2 criticisms.

I would like to see the wings not quite so large - have the envelope stand out more as the focus of the icon and the bird as the background. In the application the mail is the whole focus and the bird is the brand. It should also make the icon a little more visible at smaller sizes. The difference I am envisaging is just trimming the wings a little bit such that they don't curve down underneath the envelope.

Secondly I would like to see the bird's face a little less wussy and a more like the original native american artwork. The current face is quite 'dove' like. Making it a little more serious (not evil) would be better in my opinion.

Thanks for the work on the icons though.
Regards, Brodie.

Adam Michel -

I just want some Thunderbird ad buttons to go with my Firefox ad buttons. Someone get on it. I can't advertise grassroots for my don't-use-IE-and-OE crusade if I don't have a replacement for OE. :D

Hunkah -

Hi, I LOVE everything about these two programs, Names Icons, even the Programs themselves!

I thought that the "Birds" thing was cool, but then the problem with the other open source thunderbird project came up I thought well why not make it a dogs thing. Have a thunderwolf or thunderdingo or even a thunderhound! But then the logo cam out and I ditched the hopes of the dogs thing.

Keep it like it is. It is awesome. And for those that think the names wont stick... The icons will give them a visual reminder. Now that there is a real picture to go with the words, everyone will remember!

LPetr -

Why not call them Mozilla Fire and Mozilla Thunder? That will let us keep the cool iconography.:)

It's not as if the competition uses sane names. What does "Outlook" have to do with mail? "The Bat"? "Eudora"? How about "Explorer"? What does that have to do with, uhm, hypertext?

Mozilla Fire and Mozilla Thunder sound good while not sounding like cars or anything else.:)

Steven Garrity -

LPetr, we're not looking for name suggestions (and by the way, both Fire and Thunder are already taken.

Thanks - but no more name suggetions. The issue is closed.

Nick Burka -

LPetr - While Steve is right (the last thing Firefox needs is another name change), I think you make a point I totally agree with. All of this complaining about Firefox and Thunderbird not be similiar enough in naming is a bit silly. Outlook, Explorer, Excel, Access - have little (if anything) to do with each other or their functions. They're just memorable. Just like Firefox and Thunderbird. The names are simple and fun, just like their products. As users let's get past the naming of the products and work to making the programs themselves even better.

Ben Woosley -

On the scaling issue, I propose 2 icon sets:
Large, as above bird/envelope and fox/globe, for looks and name recog
Small, 16x16, with only the apps focus, i.e. envelope & globe, respectively.

It's much easier to make a clear looking envelope or globe at that size than to try and compress the artwork and make it legible.

By the way, kudos on the icon, I'd definately like to see the Firefox icon more in that style.

Yorkali -

Hi Everyone,
Where can I download the actual icon for Thunderbird?

Anthony Roy -

I agree with Ben. Two icon sets would make a lot of sense. The new icons are great at the larger sizes, but the previous behaviour of the Thunderbird icon of simplifying the design to an envelope at the smaller size was the right idea.

Either simplifying to an envelope/globe or to a picture of the head of a bird/fox would keep a consistent but still visible pair of icons for the two apps.

Peter Pentchev -

Yorkali, the icon should be in Thunderbird 0.6, which was released on May 3 :)

WiLLBERT -

Just found a thunderbird wallpaper here:

http://www.deviantart.com/view/6957006/

Is it official or did someone remake it?

-WiLLBERT

nicolas -

hi everybody,
I think the logo looks really cool. Good job guys

jessica -

i don't think there's been a post about this, but i didn't read everything in detail. it seems that the linux version of thunderbird 0.7 doesn't come with icons. does anyone know where i can get the icons?

jessica -

found some icons here:

http://www.landemaine.com/

they had some nice alternatives, too. also lots of other icons, including firefox.